Curse

AtomicMew · Feb 19, 2010, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Back to the main point, Been able to manage agro is a simple thing to do, unless you can only play something akin to discoway. If you cant consistently get the attention of a hand full of enemies in pve, then you need to (re)learn the basics...

You can appeal to authority all you want, but I think I've proven myself in other threads enough to be a competent player.

I strongly doubt that you can get 4+ targets *regularly* (meaning >50%) in a majority of areas in an H/H setting. Doing so is equivalent to doing more damage than D-slash or SA and we've already agreed at the get go that rangers don't do as much as melee. At the very least, there will be a not-small percentage of areas in which another damage elite will be competent with or better than barrage.

Also, I'm still waiting for a side by side comparison of H/H glass arrows build vs. barrage build. How many targets do you need to hit on average for barrage to be better DPS wise?

Tenebrae · Feb 19, 2010, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

And no, those elites and Barrage are pretty much the best ones for ranger DPS (in my opinion, anyway).

Exactly , that was it. We all ( i mean experienced rangers ofc ) used Splinter barrage in urgoz and B/P to see things explode but for regular pve .....
Talking about elites , i dont find Marks Wager downtime very compromising at high levels of expertise but ofc it depends of a lot of factors than can piss you off some seconds ( blocks , blinds , stupids "target out of sight" when theres nothing in the middle ) and cut your DPS in a half.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

You can appeal to authority all you want, but I think I've proven myself in other threads enough to be a competent player.

I strongly doubt that you can get 4+ targets *regularly* (meaning >50%) in a majority of areas in an H/H setting. Doing so is equivalent to doing more damage than D-slash or SA and we've already agreed at the get go that rangers don't do as much as melee. At the very least, there will be a not-small percentage of areas in which another damage elite will be competent with or better than barrage.

You are right , it was a bluff and i would bet that a very high % of experienced rangers agree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Also, I'm still waiting for a side by side comparison of H/H glass arrows build vs. barrage build. How many targets do you need to hit on average for barrage to be better DPS wise?

Thats an impressive challenge , dont think mister GW maths on the paper will do anything about it. There are so many factors ..... and he tends to avoid those that proof him wrong but let see ....

MaaKotka · Feb 19, 2010, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

You can appeal to authority all you want, but I think I've proven myself in other threads enough to be a competent player.

I strongly doubt that you can get 4+ targets *regularly* (meaning >50%) in a majority of areas in an H/H setting. Doing so is equivalent to doing more damage than D-slash or SA and we've already agreed at the get go that rangers don't do as much as melee. At the very least, there will be a not-small percentage of areas in which another damage elite will be competent with or better than barrage.

Also, I'm still waiting for a side by side comparison of H/H glass arrows build vs. barrage build. How many targets do you need to hit on average for barrage to be better DPS wise?

Keyword here is H/H setting.

Earlier in this topic I came to conclusion that Asuran Scan limits your single target dps to somewhere around 140. To get there with Barrage depending buffs you have you need 3 or more hits every 2 seconds. Then again to get to 140 dps with Glass Arrows build you need again lots of buffs of which some are unavailable in H/H setting. Also with Glass Arrows build you are burning through your energy very fast so you can't keep that high dps going very long. Barrage builds may or may not be as heavy on your energy depending on what skills you use, but if you are spamming barrage non-stop aside renewing buffs you are generally burning through your enegy pool slower than Glass Arrows bar. So if you can kill mobs faster than your energy runs out and you can't get 3 hits from Barrage it is better to use Glass Arrows bar.

I can be proved wrong since I couldn't be bothered to do complicated calculations, but that is what I think how things are comparing Glass Arrows bar and Barrage.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 19, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

re: Barrage vs. Glass Arrows

without getting deep into the math I think Barrage would be better in most cases. Glass Arrows is adding +20 (@15exp) to every arrow, but Barrage is also adding +20 (@15marks) to every arrow. If both attacks are delivering the same amount of additional damage from buffs then you only need to hit one additional target with Barrage to basically double your damage output. It gets worse if you can hit more than two targets.

Maybe hitting 4+ targets with barrage is not that common (though it is beautiful when it does happen) but hitting 2 is certainly not a rare event.

maxxfury · Feb 19, 2010, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

but I think I've proven myself in other threads enough to be a competent player.

I like how you take that to be aimed at you? hell, you havent posted here in 60 posts.......it was aimed at the genpop of bad players who CANT play anything but disco...you klnow, like the ones who have been spoon fed disco and have no concept of how or what or why...your general "pvx noob" tho i hate that term...

And yes YOU have proved you can roll the 'harder' areas, so i have no idea why you would quote that and think it was fired at you personally?

Over defensive much? but whatever.

AtomicMew · Feb 19, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

I like how you take that to be aimed at you? hell, you havent posted here in 60 posts.......it was aimed at the genpop of bad players who CANT play anything but disco...you klnow, like the ones who have been spoon fed disco and have no concept of how or what or why...your general "pvx noob" tho i hate that term...

And yes YOU have proved you can roll the 'harder' areas, so i have no idea why you would quote that and think it was fired at you personally?

Over defensive much? but whatever.

I know it wasn't aimed at me, but it was still an appeal to authority. I'm just saying that it's fallacious since other "authorities" (heh) disagree.

maxxfury · Feb 19, 2010, 05:58 PM // 17:58

you would be surprised at how many people who roll disco all the time who CANT actually play anything 'balanced' anymore..

But the point of someone who cant manage half a dozen enemies really needs to learn or gtfo..

Appeal to authority? lol. its general basic gw pve strategy...called agro management...and you say that agro management in gw is a fallacy?

Fay Vert · Feb 19, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39

All I can say is that if you are not regularly hitting 4+ with Barrage then you are either in completely the wrong area for it, or you are not doing it right.

I like to play Urgoz, only 4 hits there is dissappointing.

Redvex · Feb 19, 2010, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

re: Barrage vs. Glass Arrows

without getting deep into the math I think Barrage would be better in most cases. Glass Arrows is adding +20 (@15exp) to every arrow, but Barrage is also adding +20 (@15marks) to every arrow. If both attacks are delivering the same amount of additional damage from buffs then you only need to hit one additional target with Barrage to basically double your damage output. It gets worse if you can hit more than two targets.

Maybe hitting 4+ targets with barrage is not that common (though it is beautiful when it does happen) but hitting 2 is certainly not a rare event.

This is wrong glass arrows add damage to skills also that have + damage.
So if you use sundering attack at 14 marksmanship it's 24+20. It's not the same things

Tenebrae · Feb 19, 2010, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

re: Barrage vs. Glass Arrows

without getting deep into the math I think Barrage would be better in most cases. Glass Arrows is adding +20 (@15exp) to every arrow, but Barrage is also adding +20 (@15marks) to every arrow. If both attacks are delivering the same amount of additional damage from buffs then you only need to hit one additional target with Barrage to basically double your damage output. It gets worse if you can hit more than two targets.

Maybe hitting 4+ targets with barrage is not that common (though it is beautiful when it does happen) but hitting 2 is certainly not a rare event.

Well the thing is that Glass Arrows is not an attack , its a preparation. Barrage bar is , set buffs and Barrage Spam ( 2e per barrage at 13 Exp ) , not energy expensive if you dont abuse Asuran Scan ofc. Glass Arrows is part of that "set buffs" part and then you spam PB+ZS ( both +40 at 15 exp ) + Needling on recharge ( better when target is <50%hp ofc ) , so that leaves us with pretty much 60+ dmg ( 47 or so when using needling ) per Glass Arrows + Bow Attacks and you only need ONE foe to achieve those numbers.
On the contrary , with IAS barrage looks a little faster with that 1 sec recharge but to mach those numbers needs to hit 3+ foes regularly and that is not going to happen in regular pve.
For the energy part , Glass Arrows burns your energy a little faster than barrage with same buffs , even more with IAS and that needling spam .... so back to what i said on #63 ...Tank and spank and B/P groups.

PS: Balling foes a little to achieve some good barrage shots ( 4-5 ) is not hard and doesnt take much time but in those seconds Turret Rangers are already dealing damage

.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 19, 2010, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

This is wrong glass arrows add damage to skills also that have + damage.
So if you use sundering attack at 14 marksmanship it's 24+20. It's not the same things

I know that, but if you have a lot of damage buffs on your attacks the damage from an extra arrow far outweighs the bonus damage you get from any attack skill. Using Chthon's numbers from earlier in this thread you can expect something like 90 damage from each additional arrow hit because of all the buffs on it. What bow attack skill is going to give you +90 damage? Therefore a barrage that hits at least two targets is doing something like 90+90 whereas glass arrows with a strong attack skill (let's say Point Blank Shot for +40 damage at 15 expertise) is still doing less total damage because it's only one arrow. 90+90 > 90+40 This math is not that exact but you get the idea. Glass arrows is going to do more damage against single targets but barrage is going to do more total damage if you can hit at least two.

Now there are some attack skills (triple shot, double shot, forked arrow) that can fire multiple arrows in the same attack skill. These do terrific damage but their recharge is long so you can't fire them all day like you can with barrage and the energy cost is much higher than barrage.

Redvex · Feb 19, 2010, 08:24 PM // 20:24

I don't understand well what you mean for barrage +90?
Barrage with 14 marks deals +19 each arrow.

I run barrage and splinter barrage for years.
After release of Eotn and a powerful pve skills (asuran scan on all) i prefer to take down 1 eneny at fast as i can (Monk -> Elementalist -> Mesm/Necro/Ritua-> others)
If you count only on barrage tha battle last long if you don't have a tank.
And don't forget that barrage remove preparation.

In any case i am a fan of Marksman's Wager instead of Glass Arrows.
For Example I use my build in this way:
1) Cast I am the Strongest
2) Use Marksman's Wager (elite preparation for energy management)
3) Cast Asuran Scan on first enemy then Sundering Attack -> Penetrating Attack (fast attacks)
4) At this point health on caster is already under half (in hm) or if not i use Precision Shot (i use all fast activation attack)
5) Finish him with Needling Shot and then pass on another enemy. All in a few seconds and no energy management problem thanks to Marksman's Wager.
And it have a lot of variations: using Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support, Ebon
Battle Standard of Honor etc.

I find this way more profitable that using Barrage

AtomicMew · Feb 19, 2010, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

TLDR

Except you answered a question no one was asking. obviously, with a huge amount of buffs the # of hits is the most important factor.

Chthon · Feb 19, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

wat

12 wats...

Those were alternative options. One option is to run Frenzy. Another option is to use a ranger IAS that only gives 25% like NRA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Also, I'm still waiting for a side by side comparison of H/H glass arrows build vs. barrage build. How many targets do you need to hit on average for barrage to be better DPS wise?

That's a very tall order.

You should supply the GA build, so that I can't be accused of picking an inferior variant of GA to make Barrage look better.

We also have to address the modeling problems created by Scan. We need an estimate for how often your targets are dying to properly account for the aftercast on Scan and the fact that Scan may not be recharged when you change to a new target. When comparing two builds that both use Scan, I'm willing to assume away those issues as affecting both builds nearly equally. I can't do that here, and any assumption I make is going to be arbitrary and open to criticism. Suggestions?

Also, I'm not going to bother with H+H. I'm going to assume Orders, GDW, and EBSoH because those are reflective what situations that I might actually care about.

It's not likely I'll have time to get to something like this for several days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I know that, but if you have a lot of damage buffs on your attacks the damage from an extra arrow far outweighs the bonus damage you get from any attack skill. Using Chthon's numbers from earlier in this thread you can expect something like 90 damage from each additional arrow hit because of all the buffs on it. What bow attack skill is going to give you +90 damage? Therefore a barrage that hits at least two targets is doing something like 90+90 whereas glass arrows with a strong attack skill (let's say Point Blank Shot for +40 damage at 15 expertise) is still doing less total damage because it's only one arrow. 90+90 > 90+40 This math is not that exact but you get the idea. Glass arrows is going to do more damage against single targets but barrage is going to do more total damage if you can hit at least two.

Now there are some attack skills (triple shot, double shot, forked arrow) that can fire multiple arrows in the same attack skill. These do terrific damage but their recharge is long so you can't fire them all day like you can with barrage and the energy cost is much higher than barrage.

I believe you are correct in principle. But there's a major hitch. And that hitch is named Asuran Scan. Without Scan, every extra arrow from Barrage is going to hit for base+~77. (Using the same assumptions from my earlier post.) With the added bonus from Scan, it's not immediately clear to me that there is simply no other skill or combination of skills that can match a single extra arrow from Barrage. It may require 2 extra arrows from Barrage to beat certain possibilities. Travrsc is reasonable in asking for a mathematical comparison.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 19, 2010, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

I don't understand well what you mean for barrage +90?
Barrage with 14 marks deals +19 each arrow.

I run barrage and splinter barrage for years.
After release of Eotn and a powerful pve skills (asuran scan on all) i prefer to take down 1 eneny at fast as i can (Monk -> Elementalist -> Mesm/Necro/Ritua-> others)
If you count only on barrage tha battle last long if you don't have a tank.
And don't forget that barrage remove preparation.

In any case i am a fun of Marksman Wager instead of glass arrows.
For Example I use my build in this way
1) Cast I am the strongest
2) Use Marksman Wager (elite preparation for energy management)
3) Cast asuran scan on first enemy then Sundering Attack -> Penetrating Attack (fast attacks)
4) At this point health on caster is already under half (in hm) or if not i use precision shot (i use all fast activation attack)
5) Finish him with needling shot and then pass on another enemy. All in a few seconds and no energy management problem thanks to marksman wager.
And it have a lot of variations: using ebon vanguard assassin support, ebon standard battle of honor etc etc.

I find this way more profitable that using barrage

I toyed around making this (ACMxdzLGp7SkDXjcRHjTpWp3S) build pre-needling-nerf and it seems awesome. SQ reduced marksman's to a maintainable state, and all attack skills to 3 second recharge, meaning you could spam the three skills without rest (except maintaining skills).

Post nerf, Penetrating/Sundering attack take 1.5 seconds between activation until aftercast, so if the math is correct, you could simple take out needling

which.. actually makes the build more effective

Tenebrae · Feb 20, 2010, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I toyed around making this (ACMxdzLGp7SkDXjcRHjTpWp3S) build pre-needling-nerf and it seems awesome. SQ reduced marksman's to a maintainable state, and all attack skills to 3 second recharge, meaning you could spam the three skills without rest (except maintaining skills).

Post nerf, Penetrating/Sundering attack take 1.5 seconds between activation until aftercast, so if the math is correct, you could simple take out needling

which.. actually makes the build more effective

Looks very good , little activation times for the buff part and can stand AsuranScan + Skill combo spam pretty well . Shame about IAS but well , you cant have it all .

AtomicMew · Feb 20, 2010, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I toyed around making this (ACMxdzLGp7SkDXjcRHjTpWp3S) build pre-needling-nerf and it seems awesome. SQ reduced marksman's to a maintainable state, and all attack skills to 3 second recharge, meaning you could spam the three skills without rest (except maintaining skills).

Post nerf, Penetrating/Sundering attack take 1.5 seconds between activation until aftercast, so if the math is correct, you could simple take out needling

which.. actually makes the build more effective

That looks real good, actually. I wonder though, if you could simply ditch serpent's quickness and cycle sundering>penetrating>power shot?

Also, if you're not going to take SY! R/D with zealous vow seems like it would work better. (Longer upkeep, faster cast).

maxxfury · Feb 20, 2010, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Shame about IAS but well , you cant have it all .

The IAS isnt really a big factor in spamming Pene/sunder now(or its much less of an issue) due to that silly aftercast

, which isnt decreased by an IAS.

unless it got ninja fixed in another patch?

Redvex · Feb 20, 2010, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I toyed around making this (ACMxdzLGp7SkDXjcRHjTpWp3S) build pre-needling-nerf and it seems awesome. SQ reduced marksman's to a maintainable state, and all attack skills to 3 second recharge, meaning you could spam the three skills without rest (except maintaining skills).

Post nerf, Penetrating/Sundering attack take 1.5 seconds between activation until aftercast, so if the math is correct, you could simple take out needling

which.. actually makes the build more effective

I use this.
OgATcZ8kZy14UyxoVCyYXcm8tEA
Instead of needling i used powershot when it was a fast attack.
The only permanent pve skill is Asuran Scan the other change in relation to the area.

But i'm gonna try yours.

Marksman Wager is the best elite (for pve) that we can have. I hope that anet don't touch this.

EDIT
I tried you build vanquishing an elona area. It works good, but i prefer an addictional pve slot like pain inverter ebon sin or im the strongest instead of using dwarven stability to mantain SQ.

Tenebrae · Feb 20, 2010, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

The IAS isnt really a big factor in spamming Pene/sunder now(or its much less of an issue) due to that silly aftercast

, which isnt decreased by an IAS.

unless it got ninja fixed in another patch?

Yeah i was thinking about needling spam too , anyway even ench removal is not much of an issue in that build. I always have PB+ZS combo in mind and they dont have that aftercast so they are better with IAS. That skill combo bonus damage is more appealing to me.